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Another toad found in Hackney: |
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jwood Member Joined: 13 Jul 2003 No. of posts: 5  View other posts by jwood |
Posted: 20 Jul 2003 After an exciting couple of weeks finding both Bombina orientalis and Hyla arborea in our pond, we have now found the following:
For more photos, see also, http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~jwo/frog/ It is about the size of a "normal" toad (~8cm long), but with rather unusual colourings. It has a pale sandy coloured, slightly warty underside, with a slightly darker top but with striking green mottles. The warts on the side of the body are more orange coloured. Eyes have horizontal elliptical pupils with a slightly green mottled iris. It moved by jumping rather than walking. The identification key on the 'Whose tadpole' website would suggest this is the green toad Bufo viridis, but it does not match any of the photos I have seen very well. Perhaps it is just a common toad with unusual colourings? Does anyone have any thoughts on what this might be? Jo Wood, Hackney, London. |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 20 Jul 2003 Jo this looks like a fairly light coloured specimen of the Green Toad Bufo viridis which is roughly from the eastern half of Europe. They are extremely variable in colour but have the green marks and red or orange spots so your ID is correct. These do not breed too well in this country in outside ponds when people have kept them and they seem to need a pond inside a greenhouse. There seems to be someone trying to keep these foreign amphibians in their gardens ponds locally to you and not having a lot of success. The fairly thick forearms show it is a male, the call is a trill almost like a cricket. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 21 Jul 2003 I agree with David ont his one - Bufo viridis. They are indeed quite variable, perhaps depending onw here they come from. Specimens I have seen ind ry places (Israel, Morocco) tend to be paler and with smaller, less contrasting dark blotches than specimens from more mesic environments. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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Matt Harris Senior Member Joined: 03 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 196 View other posts by Matt Harris |
Posted: 21 Jul 2003 Try and find out who's releasing all these exotics and have a quiet word with them - they may not be aware that its illegal under the WCA1981. Trying to breed them in a garden pond is counted as release in this context as it is virtually impossible to stop them escaping from the garden, and evidently, the owners have failed in this respect. Incidentally, the law against release of exotics applies even if you caught the thing in the wild in the UK - if you let it go again, technically you are breaking the law. If you catch them, you need to keep them in captivity, or better still, don't catch it at all 'till you can find the owner. We all like to se different types of herp in the "natural" state, but really if people want to see these things in the wild, they're better off going abroad. One could argue that these handfuls of specimens are not doing any harm to native species in darkest Hackney, but the law is the law and it has to be applied, otherwise you're looking at the thin end of the wedge. Gwent Amphibian and Reptile Group (GARG) |
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David Bird Forum Specialist Joined: 17 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 515 View other posts by David Bird |
Posted: 21 Jul 2003 The problem with acting the "Policeman" is that you can alienate people and they refuse to tell you if anything else is found which could be more important ecologically than the species that have been found here in an urban situation. This is a law that is almost unpoliceable, the chances of finding someone releasing any animals is so low and in my view counter productive with education being far better than waving a big stick. British Herpetological Society Librarian and member of B.H.S Conservation Committee. Self employed Herpetological Consultant and Field Worker. |
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Matt Harris Senior Member Joined: 03 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 196 View other posts by Matt Harris |
Posted: 22 Jul 2003 ....that is exactly why I suggested having "a quiet word", rather than contacting the local Police Wildlife Liaison Officer. The object of my posting was to remind the finder (of these aliens) of the law û if they didnÆt know it already û so that if they found who had released them, they could mention that itÆs really not such a good idea. IÆll know better than to offer advice where itÆs not wanted in the future. I find the phrases "acting the policeman" and "waving a big stick" to be patronising and offensive to me. I work with wildlife law on a daily basis, and am well trained in the tact and diplomacy needed to encourage people to comply with wildlife law through an appreciation of the value of wildlife in terms of the environment and of our own quality of life; I have never had to recite the law to someoneÆs face, and would probably get a B*****ing if I did. Many people simply arenÆt aware that it's not on to release these things, but there are ways and means of putting the importance of protecting our native spp. in a positive light û as IÆm sure you know. On a related note, here was a posting recently, which I have to say rubbed me up the wrong way, where a colleague seemed very proud of the fact that he had recited the law to someone who had threatened to kill a snake <<"Well ... " I said stoney faced, "All these snakes are protected species, did you know that? And you could find yourself receiving a rather large fine if you deliberately harm them, did you know that?".>> No offence but this made him sound like a smart-arse and he comes across as being quite arrogant in this reply û I only hope it came across better in real-life. There werenÆt any comments about his "acting the policeman" and "waving a big stick" after that posting. We none of us like to see animals harmed, but encouraging people to not chop up reptiles while out on a walk is just as difficult as encouraging them to not release non-native herps. Gwent Amphibian and Reptile Group (GARG) |
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Wolfgang Wuster Senior Member Joined: 23 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 326 View other posts by Wolfgang Wuster |
Posted: 22 Jul 2003 Matt, I may be wrong, but I don't think David was having a go at you personally, it was just a general comment. As to the other individual you mention... it just depends on the situation and the people you are dealing with. Certainly, in some cases, a reminder that these animals are actually legally protected may well be useful to demonstrate that it's not just a matter of you being a tree-hugging crank, but that your view actually has legal backing. Those misguided souls who feel that they are doing everyone a favour by eradicating adders may find this a useful wake-up call. Obviously, the "big stick" approach is unlikely to have much effect on joy-riding, glue-sniffing, heroin mainlining scum who just do it for kicks and are destined for a life in and out of jail anyway. Cheers, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wüster School of Biological Sciences, University of Wales, Bangor http://sbsweb.bangor.ac.uk/~bss166/ |
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GemmaJF Admin Group Joined: 25 Jan 2003 No. of posts: 2090  View other posts by GemmaJF |
Posted: 22 Jul 2003 Matt, Though I agree with your original post in principle, I can also see the sense and practicality in DavidÆs comments, born I am sure from experience. It is highly unlikely that Jo would be able to find the source of the animals, and frankly why should he, he came on the forum simply for advice about what species are in his garden. As I act as the HGBI contact in the London area I will be contacting relevant people today to see if any further sightings of exotic amphibians have occurred in the area. It is my own view that a likely explanation is that a collector has simply left the area leaving the animals behind and at large. In this case I can see no real threat to natives in the Hackney area at all, and why Jo should not continue to enjoy these unusual visitors in his garden. None of the species found are likely to form viable long-term populations in the area. I would remind you Matt that the forum was designed for peaceful discussion, and though I fully except that people may have different opinions I will not tolerate personalised attacks on members. I just hope that Jo hasn't been put off, and will keep us informed of these interesting events in Hackney. Gemma Fairchild, Independent Ecological Consultant |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 22 Jul 2003 Matt, I had asked advice on these boards, and someone alot more experienced than I had reccomended "talking nicely". That is exactly what I did. I agree, the written word can be quite cold at times , but it sounds to me like you get "rubbed up the wrong way" faaar to easy. The subject was Ash Berus , and if you follow all the threads you will see posts where I ask advice on how to deal with careless dogwalkers in an area with gravid berus. I had mentioned putting up signs etc etc . BTW , She hadn't threatened to kill a snake , she had laughingly told me how she allowed her terrier to kill grass snakes. As for me being a smart ass...  Nah nah nah nah nah
 Hehe , just trying to lighten the mood.
Who's up for a huggy  Ahhhhh Big hug O-> O+> |
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Moderator Admin Group Joined: 14 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 21 View other posts by Moderator |
Posted: 22 Jul 2003 OK folks we are all entitled to our passions and views But it is now time to calm down Moderator |
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Matt Harris Senior Member Joined: 03 Jun 2003 No. of posts: 196 View other posts by Matt Harris |
Posted: 22 Jul 2003 I accept the comments above, <<Certainly, in some cases, a reminder that these animals are actually legally protected may well be useful to demonstrate that it's not just a matter of you being a tree-hugging crank, but that your view actually has legal backing.>> ThatÆs the message I was trying to get across. <<Obviously, the "big stick" approach is unlikely to have much effect on joy-riding, glue-sniffing, heroin mainlining scum who just do it for kicks and are destined for a life in and out of jail anyway.>> So now we know the sort of people you mix with Wolfgang!! <<None of the species found are likely to form viable long-term populations in the area.>> But then again, neither are RETs or American Bullfrogs. An extreme analogy I know, but looking at it objectively I feel that the overall tone of some of the postings is that these aliens are ôinterestingö and to be ôenjoyedö, rather than of concern. On the one hand itÆs true that these guys arenÆt going to go rampaging around the streets of Hackney, destroying all herps in their path (are there any in Hackney?!), but on the other hand I wouldnÆt want a casual observer of this forum to get the impression that we are happy to tolerate such releases. <<..it sounds to me like you get "rubbed up the wrong way" faaar to easy.>> Yes I probably do, where wildlife is involved! <<The subject was Ash Berus , and if you follow all the threads you will see posts where I ask advice on how to deal with careless dogwalkers in an area with gravid berus. I had mentioned putting up signs etc etc .>> Would it be worthwhile your leading a walk for local ramblers etc to explain a bit about adder natural history, whilst discreetly introducing the concept that they are protected? Adder/reptile talks round our way are usually well attended, and one guy had over 100 people on one walk! BTW, I find the term ôprotected speciesö is one that is generally understood by most people, but is sufficiently nebulous as to be a lot less threatening than ôWCA 1981 schedule 5 etc etc.ö Gwent Amphibian and Reptile Group (GARG) |
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Alan Hyde Senior Member Joined: 17 Apr 2003 No. of posts: 1416 View other posts by Alan Hyde |
Posted: 22 Jul 2003 Hi Matt , No prob's with me my friend. I'm the same , I get quite passionate and heated sometimes with regards to wildlife issues. I think this is why the chat turned a tadge official when the lady mockingly told me of her terrier killing grassies. Mind you , I still remained calm and polite , and spoke in a soft voice. I think it may have worked ,as i've seen her a few times since and she always smiles, says hello ,and asks if i've seen any snakes. Anyway, peace 
Alan Right, now who's up for that 'bonding hug' heheheO-> O+> |
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Gemma Fairchild Krag Committee Joined: 14 Feb 2003 No. of posts: 193 View other posts by Gemma Fairchild |
Posted: 22 Jul 2003 Matt Harris wrote: <<None of the species found are likely to form viable long-term populations in the area.>> But then again, neither are RETs or American Bullfrogs. An extreme analogy I know, but looking at it objectively I feel that the overall tone of some of the postings is that these aliens are ôinterestingö and to be ôenjoyedö, rather than of concern. On the one hand itÆs true that these guys arenÆt going to go rampaging around the streets of Hackney, destroying all herps in their path (are there any in Hackney?!), but on the other hand I wouldnÆt want a casual observer of this forum to get the impression that we are happy to tolerate such releases. Matt I have made enquiries today and contacted Jo with the advice I have received, suggesting the animals should be collected and a leaflet survey done of the surrounding area to determine the extent of the populations if any and am also prepared to organise the re-homing of any collected specimens. It is entirely Jo's decision as to whether or not this is acceptable. ----RAUK e-Forum---- 
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Danial Senior Member Joined: 01 May 2003 No. of posts: 100 View other posts by Danial |
Posted: 26 Jul 2003 Hello Jo I was very interested to see your message, about exotic amphibians in Hackney. I live in Clapton, and am hoping to do a voluntary placement with the London, Essex & Herts Amphibian & Reptile Trust from September. I'd be interested in helping you with a local leaflet survey etc. Do you know if any people in your area keep exotic amphibians?. Maybe the previous owners of your home did. Here is my email address: danial.winchester@totalise.co.uk Please get in touch if you need any help and advice. Thanks Danial Winchester Consultant Ecologist and Amphibians Officer of Surrey Amphibian and Reptile Group www.surrey-arg.org.uk |
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jwood Member Joined: 13 Jul 2003 No. of posts: 5 View other posts by jwood |
Posted: 28 Jul 2003 Thanks to Gemma, the Bufo viridis and the two Bombina orientalis were collected and moved to a warmer and more self-contained environment on Thursday 24th. We got a couple of photos just before they were carted off:
That isn't the end of the story though. Precisely 2 days later, yet another Bombina orientalis has found our pond. Again a male, but this one with more green on its upper surface:
For more photos see http://www.soi.city.ac.uk/~jwo/frog Gemma - I will be in touch again! Daniel, I will also be in touch with you about a local leaflet/survey. Thanks to you both for your offers of help. Jo, Hackney.
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- Another toad found in Hackney |
